tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3198523741235801120.post7642271897742254648..comments2023-06-05T07:45:51.792-04:00Comments on The 2nd Apple: "Jesus Defeats Dionysus"blshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07627725321531151309noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3198523741235801120.post-62610912107010431012013-06-07T18:23:29.772-04:002013-06-07T18:23:29.772-04:00Indeed, we're externalizing violence to keep c...Indeed, we're externalizing violence to keep credit, oil, etc. flowing.<br /><br />"Fr. Brown is right to invoke the physical violence we impose on those literally or metaphorically outside society." <br /><br />Revise to: <br /><br />"Fr. Brown is right to invoke the physical violence we impose on those literally or metaphorically outside [our] society."<br /><br />It's hard to get a handle on internecine violence in late antiquity. Urban rioting, gang violence, and highway robbery seem to have been significant issues. At the same time, the Roman version of the reality show was the amphitheater (gladiators/wild beasts etc.).Caeliushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15490717245066578132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3198523741235801120.post-65384399281317944332013-06-07T12:25:14.563-04:002013-06-07T12:25:14.563-04:00(Also, BTW: the US suicide rate has shot up drast...(Also, BTW: the US suicide rate <a href="http://thesecondapple.blogspot.com/2013/05/loneliness-and-suicide.html" rel="nofollow">has shot up drastically</a> over the past 15 years or so.)blshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07627725321531151309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3198523741235801120.post-50481410853089474422013-06-07T10:56:53.538-04:002013-06-07T10:56:53.538-04:00(Also, to me it seems clear that Europe is a speci...(Also, to me it seems clear that Europe is a special case. What's happening there is - at least to my eyes - a reaction to the horrors of the 20th Century wars and genocides. I think Europeans are deliberately damping-down their passions in response to all of that. This is why they are so worried about religion there, while we're not, for instance.<br /><br />Will it last? That's the question, I guess....)blshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07627725321531151309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3198523741235801120.post-60835636271485731192013-06-07T10:31:45.352-04:002013-06-07T10:31:45.352-04:00I don't think it's actually the number of ...I don't think it's actually the <i>number</i> of these incidents that's been so shocking; it's the fact that the victims seem now consistently to be young people and little children - 5-year-olds, in the last case. That's a deeply appalling and disturbing thing. And I think he's kind of hinting at a "canary in the coal mine" thing here - or the frog-in-the-heating-pot-of-water phenomenon. <br /><br />Two things stand out, for me. First: we're rich here; it's worth considering, I think, whether we might be outsourcing our violence at this point, via wars and commerce. (And, of course, we have one of the highest rates of incarceration in the world.) Isn't it said that Americans are all part of the international 1%? It seems to me that the first order of business in the US is always to keep the money flowing; is the wealth real, or are we propping ourselves up by printing money and using other kinds of financial tricks? I'm really asking; I just don't know. (And I don't think there was much internecine violence in the pre-collapse Rome of the Roman Empire era, either - was there?) <br /><br />Second: in a wealthy country (and one with our sky-high incarceration rate), the penalties for getting caught exceed any benefits from doing violence to others. I think modern forensic techniques must be having a huge effect on the crime rate. I don't really think Stephen Pinker is right, that it's because we've become "more civilized"!<br /><br />Oh, there's a third thing to think about, too: the effect of women's rights on rates of violence.<br /><br />But, back to the topic. You might be interested in <a href="http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/07/batman-returns-how-culture-shapes-muddle-into-madness/" rel="nofollow">this article</a> (linked from <a href="http://thesecondapple.blogspot.com/2012/12/returns-how-culture-shapes-muddle-into.html" rel="nofollow">this post</a>), about the kind of non-physical violence you mention here.blshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07627725321531151309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3198523741235801120.post-21265952684662755362013-06-07T08:15:27.181-04:002013-06-07T08:15:27.181-04:00Unfortunately, the societal impacts of our Dionysi...Unfortunately, the societal impacts of our Dionysian ways are not so easily quantified. Mass killings are not on the rise: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/01/28/department-of-awful-statistics-are-mass-shootings-really-on-the-rise.html.<br /><br />Homicide rates rose in the late 1960s and then returned to late 1960s levels by 2005 or so. Homicide rates during that period were equivalent to that in antebellum South Carolina, admittedly the murder capital of the United States at the time. In 1878, South Carolina, Kentucky, and the preacher's residence place of Texas had murder rates between 12.2 and 28.8 per 100,000. In 2011-era Texas, it's 4.4 per 100,000, 3.5 per 100,000 in Kentucky, and 6.8 per 100,000 in South Carolina.<br /><br />Property crime probably has increased, just because there is more to steal.<br /><br />I agree with Fr. Brown's general thesis. Societies that have ungoverned material wants (just like people with ungoverned material wants) do follow the trajectory laid out by Fr. Brown. There is some truth to James 4:2. If we organize a society around pleasure, we risk a society that does violence. But internecine violence in western, post-industrial society is probably at its lowest level for more than 200 years (or more). Fr. Brown is right to invoke the physical violence we impose on those literally or metaphorically outside society. <br /><br />I wonder if what society understands as violence is not the entirety of violence. Jesus taught us violence is just as bad if it's not physically expressed: Matthew 5:21-23. There's something to contemplate. Caeliushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15490717245066578132noreply@blogger.com